The image features a p photo of Sharon Ehrlich and Sonja Aboulez. Both women are looking directly at the camera and smiling. The text reads: Sharon Ehrlich in conversation with Sonja Aboulez, Episode 61, Women at the Top: Strategies for Professional Growth and Organizational Inclusion, LivingWhileLeading.com/61

Sharon Ehrlich: You’re listening to a live recording of the Living While Leading Podcast. In this episode, I speak with Sonja Aboulez, the Executive Vice President of the Parcel Business at Austrian Post.

She shares her journey from her early days at IBM to spearheading transformational initiatives for numerous multinational organizations.

We explore the challenges women face in leadership, including those they directly impose on themselves. We also discuss the importance of networking and the roles of mentorship and sponsorship.

You’ll also hear insights from Carina Berger, an Austrian Post Excellence Program participant who highlights the value of networking and leadership development.

This episode is a must-listen for those interested in women’s leadership and organizational diversity.

Sharon Ehrlich: Welcome everybody to the Living While Leading podcast. My name is Sharon Ehrlich, and I am the CEO and founder of Living While Leading, an executive coaching practice where I support high-performing professional women who want to live their lives and lead with purpose and impact.

Today, I have a very special edition of the show, so I usually record it on LinkedIn Live. And I have the pleasure of being in person at the headquarters of the Austrian Post with very special guests.

But before we get to my guest, I want to share a few things with you. The first thing is the why. Why did I create this podcast? While pursuing my career, I had limited access to women leaders and thought leaders.

I’ve created this podcast to amplify the voice of women in leadership roles, provide access to these great minds to people in my community, and provide a mentor lesson for anyone listening in. So that’s why we’re here, and this is one of the reasons why I invited you to be with us. So first off, Sonja, thank you for inviting me to these lovely offices here at the Post.

Sonja Aboulez: Thank you for having me on your beautiful webcast and joining us here at our headquarters.

Sharon Ehrlich: My pleasure. I’m going to tell people a little bit about you. I hope I don’t embarrass you. I’m going to read a few things about Sonja.

Sonja is a seasoned senior executive and diversity ambassador for female empowerment at the Austrian Post. With over two decades of global experience, Sonja has led transformational leadership initiatives, spearheaded talent development, and driven digital transformation across industries.

As the Executive Vice President of Parcel Business, Sonja excels in business development, e-commerce, and sales operations. She’s passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion, and strategic leadership. I’m unsure if it’s widely known, but Sonja is also an animal lover. She owns three dogs, two horses and a cow. But I don’t think they all live at home with you, do they?

Sonja Aboulez: Luckily, they don’t.

Sharon Ehrlich: Is there anything that I left out that you would like our viewers to know about you?

Sonja Aboulez: Well, might be worthwhile mentioning after the three dogs, two horses and the cab, that I also have a daughter, 16 year old and in the middle of her teenage dramas.

Sharon Ehrlich: Lucky you. Well, I’ve been there, so I can only wish you Godspeed.

Sonja Aboulez: Thank you.

Sharon Ehrlich: So, if you don’t mind, we will go right into it. I’ve prepared a couple of questions. Well, a few questions. Which could be of interest to our listeners to talk about your career, your journey, and some of your views.

So, I’m going to start with the first question. Can you describe your journey to becoming an executive vice president at Austrian Post? Were there any specific challenges you faced as a woman in your ascent to leadership?

Sonja Aboulez: I try to be brief because we don’t have too much time because my journey, as you mentioned, is two decades plus. Thank you for the plus and for not being too specific. No, seriously, thank you for the question. I try to make it short.

I started as a student. I was 21 or so at IBM, actually in the telephone switchboard when people called. We had that back then. So that gives you a clue of how long that is.

And I left IBM after a series of roles, primarily international roles. I traveled a lot, lived abroad, and eventually left IBM, which was the place where I grew up professionally after some 25 years as a VP with a billion-dollar revenue accountability.

Looking back, I don’t know how the journey happened. Starting as a student, I didn’t even intend to stay there for such a long time. But you know, a multinational corporation offers a lot of opportunities. Eventually, I left because I figured there was a world outside of IBM. I stayed in the IT industry in the tech world, even though my background is not tech.

I’m a high school teacher by education. Did you see it anywhere online? I also went to another American multinational corporation, a much smaller CA Technologies. I was based in Prague.

From there, I went to Salesforce. I was based in Dublin. From Salesforce, I went to Zalando. The biggest European fashion and lifestyle platform was based in or supposed to be based in Berlin, but that was when the pandemic hit. So, most of the time, I worked remotely from Vienna, my home.

And then, finally, after such a long time, I got an offer from Austrian Post to live and work in my home city and country. So I was pleased to be back here after all these travels.

Sharon Ehrlich: I can imagine. I also had global positions, and I remember moments when I would wake up in a hotel room and not know which city I was in. It’s not a very nice feeling to have when it happens repeatedly.

Well, thanks for sharing that with us. I have a question that might be controversial: In your experience, do you think women have to work harder than men to be recognized in leadership roles? Do you believe this is still a reality in organizations?

Sonja Aboulez: Some of it, I think, is due to that. So partly, yes, it’s true. Some of it, I think, is because I believe, and I know from my own experience, that women think they need to work harder and are always, you know. I’m generalizing now to make the point, obviously, but the women I’ve worked with, and again, my own experience as well, tend to be perfectionists.

They try to excel at everything they do and put a lot of pressure on themselves. So that is a big part of the fact that has become a fact that women work harder.

They also have multiple duties. Typically, it’s on them to be the caretaker in the family, to be the caretaker of kids, dogs, parents, whatever it may be. So, it’s multiple full-time roles that make you, just by definition, work harder. I don’t think so, honestly. And after such a long time in business, I’ve come to realize I don’t think women per se need to work harder.

They have much higher standards. It starts with applying for a job. I see that. I have so many job interviews to do, and I love that. But what I’ve noticed over the years is that women always emphasize what they don’t know yet, and before they apply, they do another course just to make sure that 5% that they think are missing are completed while, again, generalization.

But I’ve seen many examples, and I’m sure there’s also research on that. Men tend to be self-confident and think well, 80% of the job I can do. Not even 80%, not even 80 sometimes. I’m the right candidate. I truly believe. Luckily, in many companies, it’s not the case that women must work harder to be seen or work differently.

Sharon Ehrlich: I appreciate that answer because this is coming up in many of my coaching engagements. One of the things I’m encouraging my clients to do is to renegotiate their relationship with perfection because perfectionism can run you into the ground. And sometimes good enough is good enough. Right? And there are some things you do have to drive to 100% perfection, but not everything.

Sonja Aboulez: Very true.

Sharon Ehrlich: Let’s talk about quotas. This is another controversial topic.

Sonja Aboulez: I love that.

Sharon Ehrlich: Do you think quotas for women in leadership roles is necessary for organizations?

Sonja Aboulez: Absolutely, yes. I said I love quotas. I’m in sales. So that’s what makes us tick as well. Aspirations and goals. And you know, as I’m sure you know and many of our listeners will know, you get what you measure unless there is a target, a KPI, a quota, whatever you want to call it.

Also, on creating a diverse, it’s not just women, but a diverse environment. It shouldn’t happen just by chance. We’ve seen it. Look at history and how many years it took to get to 20, 30, and 40% of women’s representation in leadership.

We do have quotas at Austrian Post. As leaders, we have business objectives, and we measure ourselves against that as one of many objectives. We’re making good progress, but I don’t think we would see the same progress in every team without a hard target.

Sharon Ehrlich: Right. Talking about women and skills, what do you think are the critical ones that women need to develop to achieve leadership positions?

Sonja Aboulez: Great question. Successful networking involves reaching out to people, getting a mentor, and asking people for help in certain situations. Even a sounding board can be something other than a mentor.

You can have multiple mentors for different situations. As we discussed before, being less self-critical means that perfection is only sometimes needed. I think if I look back at my career networking earlier in my career, I could have helped in reaching out to people and perhaps also not taking myself too seriously and getting to an important meeting 150% prepared while men, maybe the night before, were hanging out at the bar, getting to the meeting in the morning with a hangover.

But everything was spoken about, arranged, networking done already, and you know, coming to the meeting, sleeping enough, and preparing myself. But I also missed out on the crucial networking part, partly because I figured I was not interested in that. I didn’t want to hang out at the bar.

So I’m not suggesting we do that more, or women should generally do that more but do a little bit of it over coffee. It doesn’t have to be in the evening. Invite people I’d like to share my perspective on something, get your view on it, and do it before a critical meeting. Perhaps get the right people, you know, stakeholder management involved upfront. I see that still that a lot of women don’t do that. Too shy.

Sharon Ehrlich: Well, you know what, you touched on something. You almost triggered me because when I think back on my career, which was also quite a long one, and my weaknesses.  

I kept my head down. I worked hard. I never wanted to go to the bars. I like to drink and party, but I never wanted to do it in the context of this business thing. And it cost me. It slowed things down, let’s put it like that. I think that the trajectory of my career could have been a lot different if I had put myself out there a bit more. So this is a very, very interesting statement.

The other thing you mentioned, Sonja, is that mentoring and sponsorship are essential. It’s something that I talk about very often. Who’s talking about you when you’re not in the room? Right. Having a sponsor, and I know sponsorship happens with trust. You can’t tap one on the shoulder and say, can you be my sponsor? But eventually, when people get to know like and trust you, they’re more willing to talk about when you’re not in the room.

Sonja Aboulez: What do they say when you’re not in the room? Yeah, what do you want to be known for? Being clear about that. And that holds for women and men. It doesn’t matter. Think very purposefully about the image, brand, and brand you want to create, and then communicate indirectly through your actions and mainly through other people.

And when a group of influential people sit in a room, decide about a job, and think about who would be the right person, does your name come up? So, what you just said is very important. Who talks about you and what do they say?

Sharon Ehrlich: There are many women at all stages of their careers who are laser-focused on their goals, where they want to go, and where they see themselves. Is there such a thing as women being too ambitious, and is that a negative thing? What are your thoughts on that?

Sonja Aboulez: No, it’s not a negative thing at all. I mean, I was thinking, and that’s why I was hesitating for a moment. Was I laser-focused on where I wanted to go?

In hindsight, my career was orchestrated because one job led to another. Logically, almost, but I wasn’t. But I admire people who do that, who know very early that’s where I need to be. This is the job I want.

I encourage people I mentor to think about the role they want to assume one day and then think about who I need to talk to to learn more about the role? If I’m not a natural fit today, are there skills that I need to develop to be fit for that role? Being too ambitious is not negative at all.

The question is, how do you pursue your goal? You can be ambitious, but in my view, with integrity and with empathy for other people and with being a great team player because you can’t achieve your goals without people surrounding you, supporting you, supporting you actively, or supporting you as a team that you work with.

Sharon Ehrlich: You can’t do it alone.

Sonja Aboulez: That’s right. Never.

Sharon Ehrlich: We talked about quotas and how they are necessary, as you said because there are still some imbalances in the job market, particularly in leadership roles. This means that men play a huge role in elevating careers and visibility and amplifying women’s voices. Can you talk briefly about what role men can and should be playing?

Sonja Aboulez: You said it perfectly well. Men play a massive role because many workplaces are still predominantly led by men. Men can play multiple roles as managers with direct responsibility for people in their teams.

You can help empower the women in your team to help them strengthen their voices. If you see they’re shy in a group of primarily men shy to speak up, or maybe they’re interrupted, support the woman; she has something to say, give her the space, perhaps proactively ask her opinion.

Do it one-on-one to coach her and help her support her empowerment. You can mentor; you don’t have to be a manager. You can be a mentor. You can help women progress in their careers by giving them feedback. A lot of women need to ask proactively for feedback.

And a lot of women also, I’ve noticed that again, and my own experience with myself. Don’t talk too much about what they have achieved or what they want to achieve. If I do a great job, someone will recognize it, and eventually, I will be promoted and seen for another role.

But they don’t network, they don’t have a sponsor, they don’t have mentors. And how will you be recognized if you don’t have all of that, if you don’t network, and if you don’t think about the brand you want to portray? It’s hard also if you’re not seen.

So give women in your team or your organization stage, help them strengthen their voice, and, if needed, coach them in a one-on-one.

Sharon Ehrlich: Let’s talk about something that is always in the headlines of all magazines and news stories—imposter syndrome. I also coach mid-career women, and this topic often arises: how to overcome imposter syndrome—being overwhelmed by imposter syndrome, being silenced by the thoughts in one’s head. What advice would you give to women who are experiencing this? And have you ever faced it yourself?

Sonja Aboulez: I’m unsure if I’ve faced imposter syndrome because it’s pretty complex. And you’re right, it’s a complex topic and it can have very, very severe implications for the person experiencing imposter syndrome.

But there’s a spectrum. Like with many, many other syndromes, of course, I’ve experienced insecurities, and of course, I’ve experienced doubts. Can I do this job? Am I the right person? I wouldn’t say I’ve experienced imposter syndrome in the very strict sense of it.

I also like to look at imposter syndrome from a slightly different angle because what’s being portrayed as negative, like being self-critical or having doubts, for example, can be seen from another perspective as a strength.

Being self-critical can also mean I’m self-aware and maybe humble, having doubts—same thing. You know, I’m not bragging about myself; I’m having doubts, self-aware, and self-critical. I think the problem starts when it’s overwhelming and then when it’s not a healthy balance of being self-critical, having doubts, thinking, am I the right person for this job?

There are strategies to deal with this. The first one, which we spoke about earlier, is not striving for perfection and not having overwhelming goals in front of you. Setting overwhelming goals for yourself, setting smaller goals, and then going along the way.  

Celebrate the achievements, and talk about the successes. No, in a bragging way, but, you know, if it was a team achievement, if you’re a leader, you have a team, and you didn’t achieve it yourself or yourself. It was a team achievement. Talk about the team’s achievements. And that already leads to a moment that can be celebrated. Step by step, you may overcome the doubts of whether you can do it. How can I do it? If you dissect larger goals into smaller goals.

Sharon Ehrlich: I want to double-click on the wins because this is so important. Frequently, when I talk to women, they say, I’m not making any progress; I’m not moving forward, and I say, okay, let’s just let’s look at the last few months.

What were some of the wins you had last week, two weeks ago? And then they start to list them. And there’s an issue with framing these accomplishments as wins because they’re not so big. And, like you said, you have this cumulative effect because all of these wins add up to something huge. But you have to recognize them and be aware of these wins.

Sonja Aboulez: Self awareness. Right. But frame it positively. Look at the positive things you’ve achieved and celebrate them. I want to add that speaking to someone is critically important if you have those doubts.

Please don’t keep it to yourself. You’re not alone. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have doubts about their role or mission in accomplishing the goals. Of course, share; maybe you will find out you’re not alone.

Sharon Ehrlich: Some argue that women in leadership often have to balance confidence with being likable. Do you think a double standard still exists, and how do you navigate it?

Sonja Aboulez: I think it does exist, yes. Very often, they need to be the ones who don’t fight, who don’t argue, and who maybe give in. How do I navigate it? I like to be respected and don’t need to be liked. It may sound arrogant, but I think it’s fundamentally different to be liked or respected.

You can be liked. You’re very comfortable to work with because you don’t speak up, because you don’t speak your mind, and because you don’t provide critical input. If you don’t like something, you don’t say it. So you’re a nice person who is always smiling, being nice, and avoiding conflict.

That’s not healthy, and that’s not healthy for any organization. And first and foremost, it doesn’t help you. So, I stopped wanting to be liked. In my earlier younger days it was more important. It’s a privilege of age too. I speak my mind, of course, in a respectful way and always with the right level of empathy.

Ultimately, it may sound harsh, but it doesn’t matter if people like me; they need to respect me. And it comes as a benefit if we like each other. And luckily, in this workplace here and in my team, I think most of the time, we like each other and like to work with each other, but it’s more important to be respected.

Sharon Ehrlich: I want to talk specifically about the Austrian Post. How do you foster an inclusive culture at your organization that supports the growth of women at all levels, and what policies and initiatives have made the most difference?

Sonja Aboulez: Austrian Post is quite advanced in supporting empowering women. Levels we mentioned, or I mentioned that before. We have quotas even. That started a couple of years ago, and it has become part of the DNA.

We have a diversity and culture program at Austrian Post. We have diversity networks. And one of the networks is specifically dedicated to women in leadership and how to promote women in leadership. I happen to be the sponsor diversity sponsor for that network group. And there was an invitation out there, like by now, two years ago, to everybody in Austrian Post to be part of any of these networks.

We have an LGBTQI network. We have a network to support people from different backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, and needs. We have 20,000 people in Austria and 30,000, including our subsidiaries. It’s a very diverse group of people with different cultures, languages, religions, and lifestyles.

The organization has very positively welcomed these networks. What we do is in these networks. In my network, for example, there are around 55 and 60 men and women, primarily women, but also some men. I’m happy for that. We come together regularly. We have workshops.

We pick topics that we want to work on. We have created a couple of themes. One theme is around culture and communication as an example, you know, to create more awareness with some leaders who might not be super aware of the needs that women need, be it flexible work hours, be it empowerment in meetings, be it time off for a sick child, etc.
With the measures that we defined coming out of that group, we went into the board and introduced it to the Senior Leadership Board. So we have three board members, a COO, a CFO and CPO, and they approved all of the measures.

For example, as a starter, there is training offered at Austrian Post. It’s even called female empowerment. And there’s a new training course in our library. And we decided that every leader should take that training, not just women who are interested in the topic, but male and female leaders. And we’re starting.

So the senior leaders in the company are starting to take that training first, and then we’ll roll it out to leaders. That’s one thing I mentioned: the quotas already. We celebrated International Women’s Day on March 8th of this year, and we had a broadcast; we had a guest speaker, Christina Wilfinger, the CEO of SAP in Austria. She came here, gave a keynote speech, and then we broadcast the live event to hundreds of colleagues who tuned in.

And we’re not stopping there. So there’s more to. Because these diverse network groups are not going away, it’s constant work, and needs are evolving. We’re talking about how to support flexible leadership models, like part-time leadership. Of course, it’s only possible in some areas.

We have to understand and acknowledge that we also have many operational jobs at Austrian Post. You’re here in the headquarters, but there are jobs in the field. “Zustelle,” the people who bring you the parcel, letters, and mail. We have people in the logistics centers. So, there is no one-size-fits-all.

And we’re working across network groups. There’s another network group that addresses family and leadership. So, you know, there’s a lot of parallels that we’re working on. And this is one topic that we’re working on across the groups. As a matter of fact, I have a young colleague, a lady, who came back from her maternity leave part-time, and now she’s being promoted to a leader with some 30 hours or so. And I’m sure it will work out fine.

Sharon Ehrlich: That’s great. First, I want to comment on this education. It is fabulous to have the male leaders also go through this education because they become better allies. They become aware of things that they probably were not even aware of. It also makes them so much more attuned and able to switch to their environment.

Sonja Aboulez: Another program we have revolves around developing leaders and young talents to become leaders at some point. We have an Excellence Program where very talented young leaders, or to-be leaders, are selected by the leadership team, management team, and senior leaders and then attend a year, sometimes more than a year.

It’s 12 to 18 months. A program with different workshops, different experiences, external training, opportunities to get mentors, and so on, to be prepared in a multifaceted way for future leadership roles or their imminent leadership roles. And actually, we have a colleague here, Carina, from our legal department.

Carina Berger: It’s a pleasure to join.

Sonja Aboulez: Hi, Carina. Carina joined Austrian Post three years ago and is a successful graduate of our most recent Excellence Program round.

Sharon Ehrlich: It’s a pleasure to have you here with us, Carina.

Carina Berger: Thank you for the invitation.

Sharon Ehrlich: Please tell us a little bit about the Excellence Program.

Carina Berger: As Sonja mentioned, it’s in the third turn. I took part last year and just finished. And it’s a great program aiming to support talents selected by the department heads for positions with greater responsibility.

There are a lot of different elements in the program. There were a lot of seminars, coaching, and mentorship by the manager, as well as with managers. For example, we had an interview with Sonja, and she gave us much insight, like what’s essential for her, what’s important, what tips and tricks, and what takeaways from her.

So, there is also a lot of insight from current leaders. So you get a big spectrum. It’s an international program, so it’s not only in Austrian Post, but it also includes our subsidiaries. And so it’s a big group of people, and you have a really group-wide network of people in the same position and stage.

And that’s also the main focus in the program, which is to get the network that Sonja mentioned, which is so important. So you meet many people you don’t usually have much to do with daily, but you have some kind of team spirit or group feeling within the program.

Sharon Ehrlich: Would you say that is the most significant value that the program delivered to you or is there some other value that you got from it as well?

Carina Berger: That’s the biggest. The network itself is important, but also to gain insights into different departments and get to know Austrian Post and its subsidiaries. But what was also really positive was the great broad knowledge we got through seminars and workshops. So we just had a lot of input on leadership from a technical and personal point of view.

Sharon Ehrlich: That sounds like an amazing initiative.

Sonja Aboulez: The feedback we’re getting is highly valued and intense, but that’s also the investment you must be prepared to take. We also have another program called Lead, which is for experienced leaders to prepare them for, very senior leadership roles.

The beauty, and not many people may know, is that we are an international corporation. The name Austrian Post is a bit deceiving, but it should be Austrian Post Group. We have subsidiaries in Central and Eastern Europe, Southeast Europe, Turkey, and Azerbaijan.

And what we do daily in all these countries is reach 150 million people. So, a reflection of the very diverse market we’re catering to is also crucial in leadership. I’m very proud of this program. I didn’t invent it, but I’m very proud of it.

Sharon Ehrlich: I also thought that Austrian Post is a purely Austrian operation. So this is also quite an eye-opener for me too. So, first off, thank you for sharing your experience. What would you say to any young people who aspire to join this program? What words of encouragement or motivation would you give them to pursue it and tap their managers on the shoulder and say, I want to be in this?

Carina Berger: Do it. Just don’t think too much about it and just take the chance and see what you can take away from it. Each person takes away something different. Some like the seminars more, and some like the network more. There’s a place for everybody there.

Sharon Ehrlich: Thank you for those very sage words.

Sonja Aboulez: And raise your hand, like you said, because it’s by nomination. Returning to what we spoke about earlier, you must also let it be known. Let it be known what you want to achieve.

Sharon Ehrlich: Exactly.

Carina Berger: What I didn’t mention earlier was it’s also the Austrian Post, we try to promote the proportion of women in management positions. So, the goal is that at least 50% of the program be female participants.

Sharon Ehrlich: All right, we’re getting down to the end of our conversation, and I’m going to ask you a question that I ask every woman executive and thought leader because I believe we gained a lot of insight from it. And that is, what advice would you give to your younger self?

Sonja Aboulez: It’s two things. Get a mentor proactively. Don’t be shy. Reach out to people you admire in the organization. They will be happy. They will be glad to speak with you. And even if they don’t have time because they’re mentoring or coaching many people already, they might advise you on who to talk to.

You cannot go wrong by reaching out and practicing networking. I think I said that, too. Get over it. Get out of your comfort zone. If you feel you cannot do small talk, what do I do at a party? Or I cannot do small talk, I’d rather go home. I understand, but it can be practiced. It’s necessary to have a network, a supporting network.

I want to emphasize that it doesn’t mean you have to be fake, have to be at the party, and then fake happiness or any. But at least go around find a person to talk to. Reach out to a person who you don’t know. Don’t stick with your little group that you know well. And then you talk about your job or what you know of each other.

Reach out to someone and say, hi, I’m so and so. We haven’t met yet. Which part of the business do you work in? What do you do professionally? One minute, two minutes. And if you want to move on, that’s it. Move on and find another person to talk to. Have the goal to meet one person at an event you have never spoken with.

Sharon Ehrlich: That’s fantastic advice. And, you know, it’s so achievable. Something that you said earlier. Just small things. We don’t have to boil the ocean. You can achieve tiny objectives and count them as a win.

Sonja Aboulez: Absolutely.

Sharon Ehrlich: We have come to the end of our conversation. Sonja, I cannot tell you how delighted I am to be here in these beautiful offices to get some insight into Austrian Post and your experience and thinking as an executive vice president.

Carina, I wish you all the best in your career. It sounds like you’re really on the right track. And I’d also like to thank our camerawoman, who nobody can see—Chiara’s behind the scenes filming us. And I’d like to thank you as well for your technical expertise.

So, for those of you who are catching this in the podcast, you can find this episode on my website, www.livingwhileleading.com/61. Thanks for listening.