Welcome to a live recording of the Living While Leading Podcast. In this episode, we discuss the importance of authenticity in leadership, how to sustain authenticity and transparency within an organization, and how these principles affect organizational culture and success.
Stay tuned and listen to the complete discussion with Austrian Airlines CEO, Annette Mann.
Don’t miss out on the full transcript for this episode and other resources for women leaders at https://livingwhileleading.com/59.
Sharon Ehrlich: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Living While Leading podcast. This is a live stream of our show, and today, I have Annette Mann with us, the CEO of Austrian Airlines.
First, let me introduce myself. For those who don’t know me, my name is Sharon Ehrlich, and I am the CEO and founder of Living While Leading. I support high-performing professional women in overcoming self-doubt, tapping into their superpowers, and claiming the careers and lives they want.
This podcast was something I created out of a need I had when I was much earlier in my career. I needed more access to women leaders, executives, and thought leaders. And so I’ve solved this problem for those coming up in their careers today, where I invite very powerful women and thought leaders to come to my show to answer tough questions and share their leadership expertise.
Before I go into my discussion with Annette, I’d like to read a short bio.
Annette Mann was born and raised in Bavaria. She earned her first degree in Business Administration in Passau, London in Ingolstadt, and added an Executive MBA from Kellogg School of Management in the United States. She brings a broad range of management experience, having helped in various strategic, project, and operational roles within the Lufthansa group since 2003.
After playing a vital role during the Corona crisis and serving as the Group’s Chief Sustainability Officer, Annette was appointed the CEO of Austrian Airlines in March 2022.
So, Annette, welcome. Thank you for being with us today. Is there anything you’d like to add to that bio to share with my audience?
Annette Mann: Thanks, Sharon. Great being here, and no, that was perfect. Thank you very much for introducing me.
Sharon Ehrlich: This will be a live discussion and, I hope, engaging. If you have any questions, feel free to add them to the chat, and we’ll do our best to respond. Annette, I’d like to start by asking you a question because our topic today is authenticity in leadership, the approach to maintaining authenticity and transparency within an organization and with stakeholders during challenging periods, and how it impacts organizational culture and success.
The first question I’d like to ask you today is how you define authentic leadership and how your understanding of it has evolved since becoming the CEO of Austrian Airlines.
Annette Mann: Well, authenticity is a big word, right? Because what is authentic? Many people define it as not playing some artificial role but being yourself.
However, being yourself means so many different things in life, right? How do you be authentic in your private life? You have a role in your private life, as well as in management and professional life. So, it’s about finding your authentic role within your environment.
And so, what exactly is that? The difficult part is that the one thing is always being sure and re-asking yourself: what is it? Are you true to yourself, or has it somehow involved that you play a role without even really noticing?
This is a lot about getting feedback and trying to. To calibrate yourself. How do you see yourself? How do others see you? And is that matching? Probably. This is what, in the end, would be authentic. This is a constant process because you’re evolving in roles, developing in life, getting that kind of feedback, and trying to match your picture of yourself and how others perceive and continuously balancing it is perhaps what leads to authenticity.
How has that changed since I became the CEO? Well, it is very true with every role and probably even more so with a CEO role. You have to get used to this role.
So, for oneself, it’s still me, but others see you as the CEO and have certain expectations. And so trying to calibrate yourself again to that was quite a way. It’s still going on. We have three leadership principles in Lufthansa Group, which gives me and hopefully many other leaders a good framework.
It’s about ambition, empathy, and responsibility. And that’s a great framework for me, as I am always trying to calibrate what I want to achieve, how I want. How do I want to be seen, and what’s my authentic self? Right. But it’s a constant process. You’re never finished by it with that.
Sharon Ehrlich: Absolutely. And I agree with you. As we mature in our careers, this is constantly evolving. You talked about the alignment of your values also with the North Star, which Lufthansa has set forth with these three guiding principles, which I think is very important because you have to know your why and understand what it is that you’re moving towards to lead and define yourself as a leader authentically.
Now, you had the role, if I understand correctly, of the Chief Sustainability Officer during the pandemic. Is that correct? You had two roles.
Annette Mann: Yes, more or less. I had two roles. I was on the Restart team in the first year of the pandemic. So, we tried to get the Lufthansa group back on track and navigate through the pandemic. I was responsible for lots of processes and running the airline in really difficult times, especially on the customer processes. Then I changed to the sustainability role. So, I saw it from several perspectives.
Sharon Ehrlich: Okay. All right, well, let me ask you this question then. What were some of the most challenging decisions you had to make during that period in either of your roles? And how did you ensure you remained authentic to your values while making them? Because that was an actual crisis period and unique for everyone operating in business then.
Annette Mann: Yeah, it was. However, looking back, I believe not just me, but I also talked a lot with others who were in their roles during the pandemic, somehow, because we had to make decisions so quickly, and our environment changed nearly every day.
New rules and new things were happening daily, and we just had to adjust quickly. We didn’t have much time to talk about why we do things, but we just made decisions, which was really powerful.
It was a relatively small team, and we just had one joint goal — getting through that somehow in a good way and surviving. And that brings you really to the very basics. Safely getting our passengers from A to B. And so that was our North Star.
So it was relatively easy to make decisions at that time because it was all about, as I said, getting people safely and reliably from A to B as much as possible and, at the same time, letting this airline survive. That helped us make this quick and probably authentic decision just to get the basics right.
Sharon Ehrlich: Yeah. Absolutely.
Annette Mann: And sometimes when you have too much time in daily life, right — we are a company, sometimes we discuss a lot. And we try to analyze a lot. And sometimes, it’s even harder to stay true to your North Star than in such crises. I see crises as being a bit simpler and easier to do.
Sharon Ehrlich: Because you don’t have the luxury of the paralysis of analysis. You have to make decisions, and you need to get things done very quickly. Transparency is often used in the same breath when we talk about authenticity. And I’d like to ask you if you could share an example of when you had to be transparent with stakeholders, and it was challenging. And how did you approach that?
Annette Mann: It’s a constant struggle. For example, I returned from Athens on a private weekend trip yesterday, and the plane was full. And so I had the jump seat in the cockpit, which is always nice because you can come to talk and have a lot of time exchanging stories.
It’s always a challenge. So, how much transparency do you share on what’s happening and what you are discussing in management? For example, when it comes to fleet development.
Every pilot is always interested in what’s going on with the fleet and what’s next. And so, a lot is going on in the backyard because we’re always looking for opportunities. We’re constantly analyzing.
Could this make sense? Could we get that plane? Is that commercially viable? Things like that. So, do you openly share that? Which, again is no big secret. But simultaneously, as long it’s not decided, it still creates expectations. And then, if things don’t happen, it’s probably for good reason because you analyze and say, well, that gives you minus 10 million EBIT. It doesn’t make sense.
But then is there probably disappointment because you talked with the pilots in the cockpit, and they were thinking, oh cool, something is coming. And then you say, well, no, it’s not coming.
I just openly shared what was going on and what was cooking in the background. And it’s always, how early on do you share things about being transparent and giving everyone a feeling of what you, a CEO, are doing all day long?
I will give you an authentic picture of what my job is and, at the same time, what kind of expectations you create. And is that in the long run? Everyone says, oh, cool, she’s being transparent. I better understand now what kind of job she’s doing. Or do you create more of disappointment?
Because seeing when you are as a CEO sharing stuff like that, everyone expects like, oh, it’s done. And, and that’s, and that’s probably happening every day. So, it continues to be a balance. And you learn daily when sharing is great and sharing is sometimes more disappointing.
Sharon Ehrlich: And you know, it’s not binary. It’s not like you share or you don’t share. It’s very nuanced. That was a perfect example that you shared of being in this jump seat and just having these open conversations with a very tiny group of people and how that can be great, especially for you, talking to the boots on the ground, the people who are doing the work and understanding things.
And then the question is, how much do you reveal without disappointing people if those ideas are not realized somehow? It’s a beautiful example to share with everyone. As a new manager, this is very challenging.
I was also a manager and had large teams early in my career. When I finished my MBA, I understood the danger of oversharing. So, when you’re a younger manager, I would say exercising slightly more caution is recommended only because you’re newer. And this balance comes with experience. You have a lot of experience now, and you know how to handle it differently than someone just entering their first management position. Right?
Annette Mann: Still, you make mistakes every day. I believe leadership is something where you’re never done with learning. Because you change, situations change, and people around you change. And so you always have to recalibrate yourself and learn. And then we’re back to feedback and trying to understand what people think of it, and things resonate.
Sharon Ehrlich: Well, let’s talk about turbulent times. We touched a little bit on the pandemic, but there are always turbulent times going on in the world because of economic crises, violence, etc. How do you balance the need for authenticity with the pressure to present confidence and instability when times are turbulent?
Annette Mann: It’s very much related also to the question before. So, what do you share at what point in time? One of the most complicated things, and it sounds so easy to learn as a new manager.
It’s about setting goals and what you have to set, and you have to have targets and visions. And it sounds easy, but especially in aviation, it gets increasingly complicated as you rise in your roles. Why? I am still determining how the world will look in three years.
Promising, concrete things like we will have so many planes this year and that year or so much growth until then. That’s all where you would assume. Let’s set targets like that. And yes, you can try. Of course we have targets like that. But at the same time, in our industry, you always need to remain flexible enough to change plans as soon as your environment changes or opportunities arise.
And so again, how do you set the right target so that people don’t always have the impression targets are changing all the time? So, they don’t have a plan. They don’t know what they want. And that, at the the same time, it’s clear. So again, everyone says, oh, I don’t understand that.
We try to give that confidence in the long run. But it’s a constant struggle again to set it in the right way, being concrete but at the same time leaving enough room for maneuvering, especially in a very, very volatile industry like ours.
And so what have we done? We said, well, that we’ll always remain that Austrian, for example, is a company where we want to focus on customer-centric, with hospitality as one of our core values and core things we want to achieve. Also, winning prizes means we want to give people good service and a good time aboard. It’s about food and beverage. That’s also something that we want to keep high up and where we want to progress on these kinds of targets.
We know this remains a target in three or five years, rather than having two specific targets in that month. Three years from now, we will have that many aircraft because, again, that’s something super challenging to plan and achieve there. You need the room to maneuver.
We had that joint process together with our teams there. It was a lot about being a hospitality company and setting targets.
Sharon Ehrlich: I don’t know anything about the aviation business, but I certainly appreciate you breaking it down in those terms about it being a hospitality company. I’m on the receiving end of hospitality. I travel a lot, and they stay in hotels, so it’s easier for people to understand when you put it in those terms.
I want to remind our listeners that Annette will be taking questions. So if you have a question you’d like to ask her, please feel free to put it in the chat.
I want to talk a little bit about organizational culture. In what ways has maintaining authenticity influenced Austrian Airlines’ Organizational culture, especially during periods of uncertainty?
Annette Mann: We’re back to this cultural process we started after the pandemic. When I came in 2022, I got many questions from colleagues, who said we no longer know who we are as a company because the pandemic was one thing. Still, in the years before, Austrian had gone through some difficulties, and directly before the pandemic, lots of low-cost airlines entered the Vienna airport. There was a lot of cost pressure and competition pressure.
There were also rumors that Austria should become a low-cost company with a different kind of position in the market. At the same time, this proud history of 60, 65 of Austrian being a high-quality and hospitality-driven airline. And that was something many colleagues are still pretty uncertain about.
So, what is the direction Austrian is going with all that low-cost competition at our hub here in Vienna? Right. And so we tried, and honestly, that’s not yet finished. We tried to get into this cultural process, try to understand where everyone stands, and what would be an authentic positioning of that company.
And for sure, Austrian is no low-cost company. We have to focus on hospitality and service and having great food on board. This is what Austrian is known for. This is also the self-understanding of most of our colleagues as to why they joined Austrian and want to still be with Austrian. And so that’s something we went through during that process.
Who do you want to be in the market? And now, for the next three years, we will also have a massive investment program, further investing in customer-centricity, new products, and better service. And so, but again, that’s, that’s a process where, yeah, again, you’re never finished, and understanding your culture and your identity is probably necessary with all the company so that you also give that authentic picture to the outside world.
Sharon Ehrlich: We did get a question by email. Somebody was very motivated about you coming here as a guest, a woman named Monica Keil. She asked a question about how you see that employees recognize the authenticity that you are projecting. As a leader at the helm of Austrian Airlines, do you have any ideas on their impressions?
Annette Mann: Difficult question. Again, it’s all about feedback. Sometimes people come up to you and say that and say, wow, look, it’s great to get to know and talk to you. Then they talk about how great it’s that I feel you are authentic and open.
But honestly, others say, well, look, I don’t perceive you as being so authentic. And then it’s also good feedback. Then, it’s more important to question why and try to find out where that impression comes from. And it’s, again, about learning about yourself.
When do people perceive you as being authentic, and when sometimes not? It’s not possible that in 100% of all situations, people would rate you as being 100% authentic, not just because of yourself, because sometimes they have an expectation towards your role and you don’t fulfill them. So, It’s a constant process, and the more feedback you receive — and yeah, I’m quite happy that often people come and say, well, it’s great how open you are about things and authentic.
And then, of course, that’s a great moment. But again, I never take it for granted and try to understand better and improve.
Sharon Ehrlich: Since you talked about employees, I’d like to ask you a question about strategies. What strategies do you employ to stay connected with employees at all levels of the organization so that they have an authentic and realistic understanding of the pulse at Austrian Airlines?
Annette Mann: Well, it’s organizing your agenda so that there are many opportunities to meet people. No matter if it’s because you’re visiting ground staff. For example, after the flooding here in Vienna, they really worked day and night these days to keep the operations up and to take care of people who got stranded in Vienna.
When the biggest stress was over, just visiting them, talking to them, having lunch together, that’s, for example, one opportunity. Or once a month, we come together in a format called Galley Talk. We meet in a community kitchen. We always invite 12 people from all over the company and spend the evening together. We’re chopping vegetables and doing whatever, cooking together, having a glass of wine, and just chatting about the company and ourselves.
People can ask questions, and I ask questions, or as I said, I try to use the opportunities whenever I travel. Having at least a short talk in the galley or with the cockpit crew. That’s all kinds of opportunities over a week, over a month where we try to come together.
Next week, for example, there will be another dinner where we celebrate with people who have an anniversary with the company. Also, spending the evening together, sharing a coffee with someone who came by or whom I met in the elevator. So, all kinds of things. I just, I don’t think it’s that one big thing. It’s being open and making sure that these kinds of opportunities happen.
Sharon Ehrlich: And it’s a cumulative effect. This is a question that Elizabeth Miller asked that you answered just now is, how do you encourage authenticity? How are you managing this in your day-to-day activities? Thank you for that explanation; it gets to the point.
What I wanted to ask you about is that you also have many stakeholders at Austrian Airlines. When you think about authentic leadership at your organization and your relationships with external stakeholders such as investors and partners, how do you approach it with them? Because they’re a little bit different than your employees.
Annette Mann: What I find highly relevant, not just to the external world, but in general, is trying to get into the shoes of the other. I found it extremely important during my career that I had so many different perspectives throughout the organization up to this role.
It was sometimes from the headquarters looking at the whole cooperation of Lufthansa Group; sometimes, it was from the business unit looking more towards the headquarters. I had operational, strategic, project, and matrix roles. While in all these roles and switching roles, you understand that your view is not the only one; you have your and someone else’s perspectives.
When meeting stakeholders and trying to do something together, one of the important parts is trying to understand where the other side is coming from and then trying to find a joint language and interest.
Sometimes that’s possible. Sometimes it’s more complicated. It always depends. But getting into this, try to understand the other side, where he or she or they are coming from, that’s one of the most important parts.
Being outspoken sometimes gives me a hard time in Austria because the Austrian culture is less direct than the German culture. Sometimes, the Austrian feedback is, yeah, please stay like that. We like that. Others don’t like it so much. Again, it’s always about finding what’s the right way and in what situation. And again, sometimes you make mistakes. Then you have to learn from them. And sometimes it works as well. You also have to learn from that. And yeah, that’s how I approach it.
Sharon Ehrlich: Thank you. As you know, I’m an executive coach. I work with many executive and high-potential professional women to help them achieve more, break out habits, and focus their energies. One of the conversations we always have is when they look back and talk about what they would have said to their younger self. And I’d like to ask you that question. It’s outside of the topic of authenticity. But what would you say to or what advice would you give to the younger Annette Mann, if you could?
Annette Mann: I think it would be more brave and use the power you have in every single role. Because it sometimes took me a while to understand how powerful some roles actually were without really realizing in that moment.
I also see that with people coming out and saying, what could you change, and what could be done better? And then, very often, it’s things where I ask the question, but why don’t you decide? Why don’t you make this decision yourself instead of sharing it now with me or asking someone else? Why don’t you decide? Why don’t you just to change the disturbing thing, whatever it is?
Of course, it’s not always possible to make these kinds of decisions, but you have more room to maneuver in many situations. You have more power to make decisions than you are aware. And that’s true to up to my role now. And so again, always asking the question, “could I do more?” Could I decide more without being so dependent on others? That would be my suggestion.. Pro tip.
Sharon Ehrlich: I don’t know if you noticed it, but when I opened this call today, I said one of the things that I support women with is to overcome doubt or hesitation and tap into their superpowers so that they can get what they need, move forward, make an impact. And for me, that’s what you just described: that you have more often than we know we have this possibility and capabilities to do more. Like you said, we have to be brave, grab that authority, and make the thing happen. Right?
Annette Mann: Well, ask for forgiveness, not for permission. That would be bringing it down to the point. Yeah, absolutely.
Sharon Ehrlich: I like that one. We’re coming to the end of our conversation. Annette, are there any parting words you’d like to share with our audience today? Keep in mind that we have people listening live, and we will also have lots of people listening to the replay.
Annette Mann: Well, we need more women in management. If I had known how great this job is, being the CEO of a company or an airline, I would have asked for the job earlier. I was never planning to become a company’s CEO; it came over time, but it was not that I was there in my 20s and thinking, that’s my dream job.
From that perspective, now I know how powerful that is in your life and, and how exciting also to be in such roles. Yes, there are downsides, of course, there’s coming with a price. But the price for me was absolutely worth it. And I can just encourage many more women to, to go that way. And we need more of you. Just be brave.
Sharon Ehrlich: Thank you for those parting words.
I want to thank the audience that’s joined us live today for your engagement in the chat. Your comments and your support were very much welcome.
I encourage you to follow me on LinkedIn. Thank you all again for your attention. Have a great day.
Note: This transcript has been edited for clarity.
